BCS – Joe Hurd, John Phelps, LASD Steve Taglio, Mark Goines
Meeting Highlights
If BCS “won” the first FUA subcommittee negotiation meeting, then LASD “won” the second meeting. BCS made a few more specific access requests like for grades 4 &5 to share rooms like Home Economics at Blach. LASD would not agree to any timetable for decisions on easing the FUA restrictions, other than to say the board meeting of the 9th but probably the 23rd might provide some answers. LASD Goines and Taglio would not commit to personally supporting no more lockouts at Blach at their board meetings. There will be no certainty for BCS parents and staff anytime soon.
If little kid safety was the focus of the first meeting, a potentially time-consuming CEQA restudy was the bogeyman at the second meeting. Besides possibly causing board decision delays, the ultimate CEQA answer could very well be “No, we can’t make these enrollment cap and grade access adjustments.” However, Goines did say he hoped that with all the right BCS peakload and arrival data, the proposed revised “Bullis at Blach” project would still pass the CEQA test. But at this meeting, the Egan campus was now roped into the quest for a data dump along with Blach — BCS agreed to prepare all the same peakload arrival and departure data for the Egan campus.
LASD’s Taglio was very concerned about the the 8:45 start time for BCS k-6 at Blach, namely about the traffic impacts. He said St. Francis school had grown and there had been new construction on Grant Road since the the 2002 temporary camps. Therefore, although 1200 students on Blach passed the CEQA test in those days, a 800 student peak enrollment now had to be examined closely. [Lalahpolitico: Would a mitigation be to provide a 30 minute window and start at 9am rather than 8:45? Even harder on the BCS families I would suppose?]
LASD’s Taglio mentioned that a “certain population” wanted the District to be more aggressive. {Lalahpolitico: So sad.} BCS’s Hurd wanted to make sure LASD had asked for all the data that it needed to crunch the CEQA numbers, because he didn’t want “death by a 1000 cuts.”
Public speakers included Dave Cortright, former county board of education candidate and John Radford, Los Altos Hills City Council. Dave said BCS was already in violation of the FUA. John said he was quite disappointed in the inability of the subcommittee to deal with the “piddly stuff ” immediately and move on to the “big prize – a bond measure.” He thought he might advise Gary Waldeck, LAH Mayor, to not bother with the subcommittee meetings on the long-term issues which are scheduled for LAH city chambers Tuesday and Thursday at 7 pm, Sept. 10 & 11, and Sept. 17 & 19.
ALMOST A TRANSCRIPT…
Opening Subcommitte Remarks – Goines
We amended the Bullis Charter School Facilities Use Agreement to include these discussions/negotiations. We are hopeful we will understand the BCS short term needs, alleviate the tension and move on to the long-term discussions.
We believe we have appropriate space for BCS now. We are concerned about safety of proposed changes, and the ripple effect on other students and the community.
Opening Remarks – Hurd channels R. Kennedy’s South Africa Speech
Key words are Choice, Control. Plus Compromise and Community. We have already compromised and gone half way. “Let’s be honest, There is not a district parent in this room that would willingly change facilities with a Bullis parent. We are providing info tonite to fairly implement the compromise that has already been made.”
Hurd acknowledged that Mark and Steve spoke about traffic concerns of the neighbors. Some of our [BCS] parents live in those neighborhoods as well. We hope the broader community will support the removal of the enrollment caps and grade restrictions so that Bullis can run its program.
Hurd related a story about a Robert Kennedy speech in S. Africa. “Each time a man strikes out against injustice…it creates ripples and current… that can sweep down mighty walls of oppression… Few are willing to brave the disapproval of their fellows, the censure of their colleagues, the wrath of their society. Moral courage is a rarer commodity that is than bravery in battle or great intelligence. Yet it is the one essential and vital quality for those who seek to change a world that yields only most painfully to change.”
“Before the Facebook and Twitter crowd goes wild, I realize we are not in the 60s and its not S. Africa. We are privledged to have First World problems in so many ways. We are talking about letting a k-8 educational model survive and thrive. We are talking about mixing first graders with eight graders. We are talking about a school free of tenure. We are talking about teaching Mandarin in kindergarten. We are talking about sharing scarce resources. We are talking about disruption of school schedules. We are talking about adding more students to campuses. Solving this dispute, and embracing these changes require each of us to reach inside ourselves and have a conversation with our better nature to hold on to what is truly right and demonstrate the moral courage to act. …There are 7,500 student who are watching our behavior… How do want them to solve problems… Each of us here tonite needs to lead…. Let’ s provide an education that goes beyond the regulatory minimum…”
Key Topics Tonite –
1) 149 students Blach cap up to 175; At Egan from 469 to 563
2) Caps on the two sites
Some BCS portables on Blach. Photo August 6. Blach gym is white building
BCS Probes the Past – Fingerpointing?
Phelps asked if there had been public input about grade restrictions? Goines said not exactly. At Egan, there is concern about excess concentration on a school that was designed for a max of 600. Phelps asked again if there was public input about grade restrictions. Taglio talked about total loading. {Lahlapolitico: I guess the answer is no.}
Goines raised the issue of CEQA for the first time this evening. There was a significant increase in BCS enrollment… more than the envelope of acceptable growth that would not require a new or updated CEQA.
Why weren’t we advised this was outside the envelop asked Phelps. Taglio said don’t finger point. Phelps said we were not included. Goines said let’s move on.
BCS Asks for Decision Timeline – 23rd maybe
Phelps said we have teachers and kids that need to know right now what the future will be. What schedule do you see? Goines said the earliest decision point would be a Sept. 9 board meeting, though the Sept 23 board meeting was more likely. Any ideas from the subcommittee about the FUA changes would have to be taken to the full board for approval. The content of the long-term discussion will inform decisions about the FUA. My hope is these meetings will define a collaborative process we can use all the time for all kinds of adjustments on an ongoing basis..
BCS Asks for No Lockout Promise – Nah, Can’t
Hurd was expecting that Taglio and Goines had some authority to make FUA decisions. He was hoping that the teacher and student uncertainty could be resolved. Goines though the 23rd was feasible.
Phelps asked if they could commit that there would be no further lock out. Goines said it’s not something I would support, but I just can’t do that. We don’t plan on disrupting BCSs program today, like by locking out students. Taglio says there is a population that wants us to act more aggressively.
BCS Asks for Certainty – Can’t commit
Goines: I can’t commit. Why are you pushing this point? That’s as much as I can say. I’m just one board member.
Phelps: Can’t you give us certainty?
Moderator: Uncertainty is a part of life. Move forward tonite, so it is more likely you can get something by the 9th or the 23rd.
Phelps: Can’t you two commit and make a gesture that you can support no lock out? I don’t like the threat.
Goines can’t commit to no lockout. Taglio says part of the population wants the district to be more aggressive.
Turning to the Data
Hurd presented a 3 page document with data for LASD.
Student loading at BCI and Blach – 3 buckets
- k-3 fewer than 90
- 4-6 fewer than 150
- 7&8 fewer than 100
Indoor Shared Facilities per room Request
BCS requests that on raining days, either the gym or MPR be available for any grade, during the scheduled BCS shared times. Right now the FUA has blanket ban on k-5 using these spaces at all. Goines said that perhaps the district can feather the two schools schedule.
BCS requests that the Home Economics room, which is BCS exclusive space and not shared, be accessible to 4 & 5 graders. They won’t put k-3 in there though.
Outdoor shared Facilities Request
Allow 4&5 grade students to use these during BCS assigned times.
Proposed Location of Play Structure
It is in the brushy space, in front of the pre-school, and adjacent to the parking lot, that BCS would like to place a play structure. Also they’d like to use the grassy space next to Stepping Stones when the pre-school is not using it.
LASD Response to BCS Requests – We need a 30 minute window
Taglio. We’d still need to understand by week what the grade mix is. From an emergency point of view, we need to know if kindergardeners are there or what. For each rotation, the kids will be new to space and not know the crisis procedures [sic or need a refresher]. So let’s have the admins communicate this each time there is a rotation—namely, what age groups will be there.
Goines. The k-6 arrival time of 8:45 is only 15 minute gap. We actually need a 30 minute window from the Blach time of 8:30, to not have to reexamine the CEQA. That’s what my experts tell me.
We already did the study around the 7&8 8:00 arrival times, so I don’t think we need to reexamine that. But with the k-6, I can’t tell what the impact of the k-6 would be unless I assume it would be the 175. But it probably won’t be that high. So if we could understand what that peak might be of 8:45 arrivals.
Phelps: Right now we have 5th and 6th graders today. Let’s both go visit tomorrow and see if there is impact.
Goines: I was there already. There were some newbie parents there who did not know where to go. That’s normal. That is not a worry. We need to an analysis of what the peak load impact will be vs. the study that we already conducted to make sure we are within the envelope of that study with whatever new peak load might be.
Phelps: Did we not have a peak load of 1190 at this site in the past?
Goines: [sic no direct answer, instead Goines replied] “We amended that study with this new data. So we just need to validate that study with this new data.” We also did a new traffic count study, because traffic counts are different there now then they were then. That was all part of the CEQA process.
Goines: So I’m hopeful that’s there’s no impact here, so that we’re fine, but what I need is the numbers so that I can run it to our CEQA advisor so he can say oh yeah, you’re study is fine, or he might say oh well, it would be better if they lived within the original limit, because if they don’t we might have to redo our study. Which could delay things.
Phelps: Is your only concern this CEQA?
Goines: No, but it’s the key concern. It’s the one law I have no authority over. But I also what to understand it in the context of the rest of the offering. We have some other concerns. But the peakload issue seems resolvable with the right data.
Taglio: The other concerns would be the traffic flows. The more granularity you can provide, the better the board can understand.
Phelps: We are talking about 29 kids over the 146 cap on Blach.
Goines: Yeah, that doesn’t sound like it would break any of the math we’ve got already.
Phelps: That’s 2% of the 1190. What is enrollment at the two junior highs?
Goines: We have about 530 at Blach. About 550 at Egan. Also the children at the Stepping Stone. We have a large cohort of 7th graders this year. We will have actual data by Monday.
Phelps: So we are in a range of 800 kids for a site that can hold nearly 1200.
Goines: It really has more to do with how many kids arrive in any 15 minute interval. Part of the reason we move our schedule [sid to 8:30] was to accommodate increased number of kids arriving at 8 am, in part an accommodation of your schedule. We delayed ours by 30 minutes. We just want to validate that with these 15 minute increments that we are not going to have a peak load problem. On the arrival times. Within the bounds of what we already analyzed.
Goines: I’ve learned that assumptions around these issues are not wise. We need to be as accurate a we can.
What are the caps at District campuses
Phelps: Is there a hard cap on any of your other campuses?
Goines: For each remodel, we studied the max. Also there is a design, and classroom size design.We studied traffic at a design level plus with some portables estimated in for flexibility.
Taglio: We usually add 60 kids across the district during a school year. When classrooms are all full, at their max, we do send mid-year arrivals across town to a non-neighborhood school.
Phelps: How many kids are Egan are zoned for Blach? And how many are out-of-district. The demographic study has last year’s data, but where is this year’s data?
Goines: Usually that data is ready from the state Oct. 2. That’s when we see it.
Moderator: Are there items we need to do work on tonite? Before the break?
LASD Say We Need Staff Data too
Phelps: Yes, What other concerns, besides the CEQA piece?
Goines; Sorry, I forgot to ask last time. What is the number of staff members at these arrival and departure times? We also count staff trips. It usually doesn’t matter for traffic because they arrive really early, and leave really late, but we need to know they are there. We used staff in our prior CEQA reports, so we need to include them now.
Phelps: Really for six staff people at BCI?
LASD Asks for All the Same Data for Egan Now
Goines: I think there is a mirror set of questions around Egan. We did a CEQA study there. We have concerns about traffic. Just to be complete, how can we examine the same data at Egan? We made some assumptions about bell schedules that seem to have changed at Egan. … { sic so the CEQA “analysis” now needs to be crunched for 175 at Blach, 563 at Egan
Phelps: So you need to get your CEQA consultant to agree that it is not a concern. What would have happened if you hadn’t done an addendum?
Goines: Then we would be in violation of CEQA, [sic pause] probably. That’s why we did it. We felt there was a significant enough population change that we needed to review the study. That’s why we did an addendum.
Phelps: So could we go to the CEQA consultant together to make sure there is not problem.
Goines: I think that depends on the status of our CEQA litigation?
[Lalahpolitico: Whoa! Going off the rails here into the ongoing litigation. Not in the spirit of the subcommittee intentions. But FYI, Lalah checked and BCS has used CEQA on LASD. That case is still ongoing. So now CEQA is chaffing BCS at Blach. A two-edged sword apparently.]
Phelps: We’re not talking about that [sic litigation]. We’re talking about solving this [sic FUA restrictions on BCS k-8 program]. If he is the guy who has the opinion on it and there were previously 1100 and more…
Hurd: I have a hard time getting my mind around the need to update a CEQA study that had 1100 students on the campus. … So Los Altos School District instructs its consultant to do a new study on numbers that are dramatically lower than 1100. And now low numbers are being bandied about as a cap, when in reality they are a suggested guideline. And there are mitigations to be taken if the number is over the guideline. I have a hard time getting my mind around all this.
Taglio: You need to understand the number from [from 1100]. There is a lot of new development which has occurred at the end of Covington. [Pumpkin patch was replaced with 30 plus homes. St. Francis population has gone up. All those are feeders we have to look at…
Hurd: But then you have the consultant update that data, you give the consultant a projected load at Blach, its just BCS numbers. Seems pretty one sided.
Goines: Not. So. the Egan and Blach numbers have grown a little. It’s within the envelope.
This is a new project – “BCS at Blach.” We added it as an addendum to an existing project ( sic the temporary camps? the remodels? ). There are requirements we need to follow. … I’d rather just get together as a community and say we like this, so let’s do it. But there are legal processes required to be followed. And you know well, if you don’t follow those, you could find yourself in some kind of hurt. … The intention is not to introduce some false cap. …. If we accept your changes, we just want to make sure we are living within the rule set we must abide by.
Conspiracy Theories – Misuse of CEQA to Harass
Phelps: A concern… the Mercury News Editorial about CEQA, the “misuse of CEQA to harass. “
Goines: That’s not productive. I don’t want to be required to do it (CEQA process), but I am. If we don’t do it, someone can slap a lawsuit on us. You have to go through it with us. All we need is some data…
Taglio: You [BCS Phelps and Hurd] keep throwing conspiracy theories out…. [sic you seem to be saying…] Your bring up civil rights in your opening statement… I’m [LASD] here using legal terms to block you [BCS] from having what you want. My god. You keep bringing up trust. At some point you have to trust. That’s a leap of faith you have to go through. If you are not willing to do it, then we could be here all night. That is frustrating for me. The answer is the answer. Either you believe it or if you don’t, then walk away. You can’t keep doing this. This makes it harder for me to have the long term conversation. How can we get the bond measure that will solve this political thing permanently. … We need to stay focused. Don’t pull out a Mercury news editorial. Or talk about Wisconsin public employees. Grow up.
[Lalahpolitico: Dear reader I hope you are aware of the Mercury news editorial on the CEQA reform movement and about the Wisconsin public employee union situation. You should also realize that our nice, cozy school board elections receive a fair amount of union campaign support. Not just the teacher unions either. ]Moderator: People outside of schools don’t understand the severity of CEQA. Someone could bring a lawsuit and stop your project. Just get it done. Get it done quickly
[Lalahpolitico: That’s why lalah supports CEQA reform.]BCS Excess Growth brought CEQA Down on BCS — It’s your own fault
Phelps: All four of us are here in good faith. Bullis is the only project being impeded.
Goines: It is called a project under CEQA. We have looked at this every year.
Last year, you decided to growth at a faster rate. A substantial increase in the number of students. That triggered a requirement, because it was over the acceptable annual growth, for us to add a project to accommodate that. It opened up the whole can of worms of question around the entire Bullis Charter School program. It finally got to the point where we had to update a study. I believe if you had grown more slowly we’d not be talking about this. That is what I understand from the consultant. I’d rather move on.
This is a checkbox process. A simple easy process, that is painstaking detailed that we must follow. Therefore we must ask you for very detailed information to accommodate that. And expect to get it now.
Moderator: We have 20 minutes more. Let’s have our break now. 10 Minutes?
How much more time do we want to spend tonight? ….[ok to go over some]
Bullis Charter want to build a play structure on Blach at its expense
Data Action Items – Staff loads, and Egan Scrutiny — Death by 1000 Cuts
Hurd: We heard you loud and clear. We are going to give you details as quickly as we can on the questions. Staff loads on Blach and Egan.
Phelps: You are still looking for info on grade-loading at Egan by bucket. We can turn it around in 28 hours.
Goines: We just want to double check the study we did.
Hurd: So you have everything you need to crunch the numbers? Let’s not make it death by 1000 cuts.
Goines: Oh no, one and done.
Phelps: Max staff at Blach is 12, but we’ll check that
The Dulcet Strains of Kumbaya
Hurd: We both want to get to Yes. We hope we will get answers that will give everybody clarity.
Phelps: We are happy to provide you with this information. We just need the caps and grade restrictions eased up. So we can run our program. We are very keen to go do the long term discussion. BCS can be a complement to the District. We can be an experimental lab… and have the charter and the district embrace. I am willing to do whatever it takes to have peaceful co-existence in this community.
Hurd: The importance of dialog… We need to get to a place of mutual trust, or at least consistent information exchange. So we can get to the point of ad hoc, on the fly resolutions of issues as they arise.
One Last LASD Swipe at the Hours and Hours of Litigation Energy
Goines: To wrap up. Thank you for all this information. It’s close to answering… I can’t guarantee we won’t have the need for another data point. We do want to collaborate on this and on the future as best we can. I’m still troubled that ….we can’t ignore that we have to collaborate outside the the courtroom. I spent and hour and half of my day going through some briefs. So it is very distracting. It requires me to do things inclosed session that we would rather do in the public around our relationship.
How could BCS help us as a community heal. We would like you to consider making some changes in your strategy . {Lalahpolitico: the strategy of growth? Serving all the demand? The strategy of litigation? ]
Phelps: We are building little threads of trust and exchange is how we get there. Court and legal issues are solved outside the courtroom all the time. I want that. We ought to be able to solve these few little things. There is no additional facilities request at all. Move into a new phase where we collaborate.
BCS Takes Doug Smith’s Advice on Where to Locate Play Structure
Goines: You did in fact ask for some more land tonite. So there is an additional facilities request.
{Lalahpolitico: I’m not so sure BCS did ask for more land. The shrub area in front of Stepping Stones School is exactly where LASD’s Doug Smith suggested that BCS could put a play structure. He will be thrilled that BCS is finally taking the advice he gave at a spring board meeting. I am now checking the land allocation. Pretty sure the shrubs are in the allocation. Yes, as seen in the Blach map of the 2013-14 offer above, the shrub area is already in there as is the grassy area north of the track next to the sidewalk. Funny, that Goines did not remember the land allocation. }
Phelps: What was dead space in our understanding.
Goines: I’m not saying you shouldn’t have requested it.
Hurd: We’ll spend money at our expense to turn shrubs into… a play area
Phelps: We also initiated mediation 1 ½ years ago. I invested lots of hours. We halted all litigation in good faith. Unfortunately that mediated agreement did not hold. That’s the past. We’re ready.
Phil Aaronson, BCS parent
Public Comments:
Some public speakers from beginning of the meeting
Regarding traffic concerns, a public speaker said that the BCS car and bike traffic was going smoothly. Mr. Dave Cortright implied that BCS has been in violation of the FUA since day one. Another speaker said BCS had been abiding by the FUA. Some said don’t deny the entry of others to the BCS alternative due to caps on enrollment.
Dave Cortright, former county board of education candidate and well-know anti-charter blogger, said BCS is already in violation of the FUA
Some Public Speakers from the End of the Meeting
Parent of BCS 2nd grader
Think about the kids. Doing studies, we should be doing those probably…. Being on two campuses is already a compromise…. Both my wife and I have to work to afford to live in Los Altos. …. This is about parents of k-3 graders being educated the way the parents want them to be educated.
Sharon Clay
How about we say no lockout, and at the same time, no legal action?
Parent of 2 kids at Covington. I think we made real progress tonight. These short term erm meetings are hard because all schools are growing and we don’t have more space. BCS has chosen to growth significantly in the last year, and accommodating that growth that meets the desires of you program is making an impact on all the other students of Los Altos. Last year I watched many Egan parents say we don’t have one more square foot to give. It’s not safe in front of the school. Please not one more student. Everyone complained about the overcrowding on the campus. I appreciate the compromise you made. When you say BCS is the only one compromising, it sounds like you are wiping away the impact that your growth has had on the rest of Los Altos. Please recognize their efforts…. Finally, how about we say no lockout, and at the same time, no legal action?
Natalie Elefant
BCS, please explain to us long-timers what you are doing in your school? We trust the district school where we sent our kids.
I’m a community member, my kid went to Los Altos Schools. They are now in their forties. I want to thank the members of both boards. I appreciate you comment Mr. Hurd that we need change. Hopefully we are on the road to change. Could BCS please give the school district the information they requested. Could the school district try to accommodate BCS for the changes in the facilities as it is asking, if it’s legal, obviously. Can BCS tell us more about your program, rather than just these fluffy marketing things. Can you really explain to us what you are doing in the school. Because as a community member I really don’t know. I don’t know what you integrated program is. We need more schools. We need to work together to get two more campuses. With the division you have in this community, you will not get a bond measure passed. With people my age who sent their kids to the district schools, and then we see all this going on, and we have great trust in the district schools. BCS, you have to explain to us, and stop the litigation please.
John Radford, council member City of Los Altos Hills.
“I may advise the Mayor to not bother with the meeting on the 12th.
Get beyond this piddly stuff immediately, score a small victory now, and move on to the big prize, the bond.”
As a public official I have been warned never to criticize public officials from other jurisdictions. So this is not intended as a criticism, maybe a hope. The big prize is a long-term bond. I have sat through both these meetings and all the district public meeting last year, and I have to tell you I see no reason, if the prize is a long term bond, that the district shouldn’t almost immediately grant the requests of BCS. If you can’t event do that, I’m not sure Mayor Waldeck and a facilitator can have any success is discussion a long term bond. It is critical to get this short term behind us. And it is even more critical to prove that you can get together and produce result. We’ve just had two discussions and we don’t have any results yet. And I don’t even see a commitment to when that [ a result] will happen. My advice to both these boards – score a small victory. Get this done immediately.
Two other comments. We are offloading parents from Egan onto Blach. Egan is being served. Also we are fighting over CEQA. The only reason we have to do a study now is because of the numbers we just gave them [ sic the 26 more at Blach] . Not because we had significantly more kids on campuses. [Lalahpolitico: I think Radford is saying the decision to have large growth was in the BCS first facilities request last February. So that is not a surprise and not really behind the district’s desire? need? for a new CEQA recalculation at this juncture.]
I may advise the Mayor to not bother with the meeting on the 12th. Mark there is nothing stopping you from going to your board… If you don’t want a long-term bond, continue to fight. This is such piddly stuff. It should be pulled aside and get on to the bond issue. Once again, I don’t mean this as a criticism.
Fred Gallagher.
“So where is the vision and leadership to build a 10th and 11th site?”
BCS parent, task force member. We need an expression of leadership. I think we are getting stuck on some details. It is 5 to 20 kids. What would be reassuring is some strong words about your vision, about the leadership you are going to bring to solve this problem, to build a 10th and 11th site.
Phil Aaronson.
“ I was hoping for more transparency on how the caps were set. Looks like magic behind a curtain.”
BCS parent. We had talked about trust. The limits seem to match the indistrict student counts. How could those magically match up? The real limit seems to be behind some other curtain. I was hoping we could get some more transparency. Could we get a memo?
Unidentified woman.
“Both sides should be transparent. Stop accusations of conspiracy.”
I would love there to be more transparent instead of doing mud-slinging. I am speaking in response to {Aaronson’s} these veiled accusations of conspiracy. I would like to suggest the other side provide similar transparency. Perhaps the pettiness on both sides might lessen. Play fair, play well with others. The tension in this room is palpable. Can we reduce the snide asides. We’re all adults.
Lalahpolitico: I did not think there was much tension in this meeting. I did not notice any snideness, at least not that made it on my audio tape. For the record, there were two “hot” exchanges over the course of the two meetings. Goines raised his voice quite a bit at one point as he is wont to do { and as Lalah has documented}, and Hurd said, “Don’t bark at me like a junk yard dog.” Ouch. Hurd’s long soliloquy about the Kennedy speech in S. Africa was apparently not appreciated by Steve Taglio. Much later in the meeting Steve muttered heatedly words to the effect that he did not appreciate being equated with the Ku Klux Klan. Ouch. Well, I’m from the East Coast where people rough each other up verbally, and it’s just conversational style folks. I don’t place such a high value on a 100% nicey nice discussion. Nothing much must be at stake. My two cents.
